Curse

mazey vorstagg · Sep 24, 2007, 02:09 PM // 14:09

I play PvE almost solely, rarely doing pvp, mainly because I enjoy a role playing experience more. In Guild Wars the pvp and pve are really quite separate, except the skills. But I think that the initial vision for GW was to combine pvp and pve into one game. When you leave pre-searing you fight a group of humans/henchies in the Ascalon academy, there were once arenas in every major town. Missions like Aurora glade were obviously concepted as a mission where two teams raced to attune a portal but were changed later in the development process to a more pve centered style. ToPK is another example, the HoH at the end was once probably intended to be the only way to get the to modern HoH. so, in order to do high end PvP you'd have to do high end PvE too.

In factions that PvP/PvE mix was attempted again, but it didn't quite make it, alliance battles and competitive missions were optional and not story based. In NF pvp was abandoned completely in the campaign and it was left to a completely PvE experience. Now I'm not complaining, just thinking. Do you think GW would have been good as a combination game? Where everyone started off in Ascalon and leveled up but in the end some people spent more time doing arenas and ToPK and others did FoW and UW.

I personally think that I'd enjoy PvP more if it were forced on you in the campaigns.

What do you think?

Mazey

Lord Feathers · Sep 24, 2007, 02:13 PM // 14:13

P vs P isn't that bad it's actually fun in some cases it's just the mentality of the players that one runs into that make it something most folks don't care to play. In P vs P you run into far more NOOB bashing, LEET antics, and over all un-sportsmen like behavior. If GW was to force P vs P into the game it would be a game I no longer play

EternalTempest · Sep 24, 2007, 02:39 PM // 14:39

At one time yes, the original GuildWars meant pvp as end-game content.
There was not bath faction for unlocks, you had to do it via pve in-game.

Faction AB / AVA battles look like it wanted to added a more friendly (1 click join or 4 pty group) for faster pace, less "elitism", or non-detailed planning style of pvp to get more pve to try pvp.

Nightfall... I think they gave up. Plus remove HoH and Fow/Uw access control

I do think that's part of the reason for gw2 to have pve & causal pvp and a separate balanced / structured pvp.

Yichi · Sep 24, 2007, 05:35 PM // 17:35

Short answer yes. Long answer, at one time yes.

p.s. Fix your sentance structure in your original post. That was confusing as shit and gave me a headache.

Spazzer · Sep 24, 2007, 06:30 PM // 18:30

Fort Aspenwood is a mix of PvE and PvP. Many players (including myself) consider it the most fun mode in the game.

Amalek · Sep 24, 2007, 06:36 PM // 18:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by mazey vorstagg

ToPK is another example, the HoH at the end was once probably intended to be the only way to get the to modern HoH.

I guess you started playing after Tombs became HA and the pve Tombs was added?

mazey vorstagg · Sep 24, 2007, 06:38 PM // 18:38

I've fixed it, sry that's what comes from planning in notepad.

I agree, Fort Aspenwood is really good, sadly not too many people play it anymore. But it is a good balance between PvP and PvE.

wilebill · Sep 24, 2007, 07:28 PM // 19:28

If you look closely at Prophecies there are also what look like Outposts that were never put in, things that look suspiciously like entrances to dungeons, some amazing artwork in areas most players rarely if ever visit. So you might be right, they might have originally thought of mixing PvP and PvE in the manner you suggest. But if so, it ended up on the cutting room floor along with a lot of other ideas.

I'm mostly PvE these days, but I'm not anti-PvP, not at all. I don't think "forcing" PvP on people would have worked.

Agree that a balanced PvP and PvE environment like Fort Aspenwood was the best idea they ever had. Hopefully, there will be more areas like that in GW2.

Zahr Dalsk · Sep 24, 2007, 07:33 PM // 19:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by mazey vorstagg

I agree, Fort Aspenwood is really good, sadly not too many people play it anymore. But it is a good balance between PvP and PvE.

Really? Last time I was there, a few days ago, there were so many people that I had to wait several countdown timers just to join.

Um Yeah · Sep 24, 2007, 11:01 PM // 23:01

PvP was once intended as being end-game PvE content. So you'd take your pve chars through pve and pimp them out and then go play pvp with them. Obviously not everybody wants to pvp and not everybody wants to pve, so the game became more separated between pve and pvp and Anet mismanaged pvp while cradling pve community with new chapters and content. And yeah, Tombs used to be the site of what is now HA, with all the pvp maps and such, but a few months before the release of Factions, with the preview event, they moved Tombs to the Battle Isles in the form of HA and turned Tombs into a pve area using pvp maps with pve enemies.

Croco Clouds · Sep 24, 2007, 11:26 PM // 23:26

OMG I just had this dream last night!

kill steal ftw!

Gigashadow · Sep 24, 2007, 11:46 PM // 23:46

Fort Aspenwood is really really fun. Sure, it's not a competitive format, but it doesn't feel quite as mindless as AB, and there is a little more camaraderie on your own team.

Leechers have hurt that area bad, though. I came back to GW after 10 months, and they still haven't done a damn thing about it, although changes are apparently "imminent". A little late, in my opinion.

DreamWind · Sep 25, 2007, 01:40 AM // 01:40

I'm tired of this charade. Guild Wars was not meant to be what it is today. Originally PvP was the endgame (with PvE as simply a gateway to that), but Anet completely changed its marketing strategy to cater to the grinders. End rant.

Onarik Amrak · Sep 25, 2007, 04:15 AM // 04:15

Aspenwood is the Destination B for most PvP Faction Farmers.

If the faction line is heavily slanted so it's unfavourable to a faction, a lot of the ABers will hop over to Aspenwood instead for a higher chance of winning.

I like Aspenwood, it's fun. The biggest problem is the leechers.

fenix · Sep 25, 2007, 04:20 AM // 04:20

As many have said, back when only Prophecies was around, PvP was intended to be the end-game. You played through PvE, gaining knowledge about skills/builds and in some cases strategy, and once you finished you moved on to PvP (Competitive Arena and Guild Hall was across from Lion's Arch, Tombs was attached to Dragon's Lair, etc). This meant that players would have some knowledge about how to PvP, but it would be built on with experience. Unfortunately, Anet did it wrong, and now they are seperate.

tmakinen · Sep 25, 2007, 04:55 AM // 04:55

If you look at the three desert missions closely, you'll notice that they are nothing but a primer to HA (originally ToPK), teaching some basics of a deathmatch (Thirsty River), altar cap and hold (Dunes of Despair) and a relic run (Elona Reach).

Yes, the original vision of GW was to be something like the CS of MMORPGs. However, a large part of the player base is not interested in PvP and thus the PvE side has expanded into a pretty separate entity. One must remember that whereas in PvP the players themselves are - by and large - the content, PvE requires a constant influx of new content or it will go stale.

=HT=Ingram · Sep 25, 2007, 06:16 AM // 06:16

IN the beginning it was all about Player vs player...
its not about grind its about skills... Unlock all skills, was the ideal (now this is available with PvP editions )...

That was the first betas then they introduced PvE and it was a hit with the more common player... Prophecies goes live and PvE was the beginning route to PvP at end game... Basically a way to get skills unlocked for PvP you had to play PvE... Tombs became the elite area of the game that everyone strived to get to and participate in, and pretty much that was the golden age of Guild Wars PvP... Sprinkled throughout the game were a variety of arenas for PvP opportunities as you unlocked more and more for your character to use.

Then just a little prior to Factions coming out the Battle Ilse was born... And as such the separation of PvP from PvE... And ultimately the downfall of PvP for the common player that would have discovered it from participating in normal PvE adventuring otherwise...

Thing is Arena net learned that if they wanted to make new product to sell, the draw was not going to be new classes and skills alone for PvP... there had to be a PvE story to add to PvE content to get a large majority of people to buy it...

Trust me if there was no Cantha, or Elona PvE lands expansions... there would not have ever been 3rd campaign based around PvP alone...

The UAS PvP release of the games brought back to PvP what the PvPers demanded from the beta ages.. However those sales PALE in the numbers that the actual Full Campaign sales, because by the time they offered it most had everything unlocked that they wanted anyway... but for new people it was a quick way to be competitive in PvP without the grind... which was the original intention for PvP all along.

Now we Get GW:EN a pure PvE expansion... bringing with it nothing really new for PvP... Why? because in the end The earlier campaigns did more to hurt the PvP part of the game then add to it... because new skills and classes changed the meta game so much every time it took months at times to retain the balance of the PvP system... This time the Designers got smart and added skills for PvE ONLY, thus not effecting the PvP meta game too adversely this time around... And yet adding lots of PvE area to continue the more common adventuring masses on their journey, and adding to the ever growing profit margin for ArenaNet.

Point is PvE makes the money... PvP is the competition and challenge...

In the end they had to go with what was going to make them money.

strcpy · Sep 25, 2007, 08:32 AM // 08:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by =HT=Ingram

IN the beginning it was all about Player vs player...
its not about grind its about skills... Unlock all skills, was the ideal (now this is available with PvP editions )...

They have stated over and over and over that PvE was the first to be worked on, PvP the second, and that is irrelevant as they considered both to be equal. For some reason people do not like that idea and would rather one side ot the other to be "The Point of the Game". From the get go it was designed as a competitive RPG (note that statement means *both* PvP *and* PvE) and was sold as such

Quote:

Then just a little prior to Factions coming out the Battle Ilse was born... And as such the separation of PvP from PvE... And ultimately the downfall of PvP for the common player that would have discovered it from participating in normal PvE adventuring otherwise...

They were separated well before then, there was never a time in PvE where you were naturally pushed into PvP. Most peoples introduction to PvP (RA) was killed by people entering with Droks armor and late game/elite skills. New players couldn't compete - in fact you died instantly and never knew why. Once some method for the PvP crowd to be elitists showed up (fame) coupled with no beginner's PvP very very new players entered. If you tried to enter PvP at that point you had to be dedicated to grinding and playing with elitists idiots (that is, not have fun for months) until you could get into decent PvP groups. Instead you could go play PvE, not worry about that stuff, and have fun. If anything Battle Isles evened the playing field as there were no "beginner areas".

Quote:

Thing is Arena net learned that if they wanted to make new product to sell, the draw was not going to be new classes and skills alone for PvP... there had to be a PvE story to add to PvE content to get a large majority of people to buy it...

In this I agree. The game started taking a MUCH stronger PvE focus after it quickly became apparent that one had to be dedicated to playing PvP, not just happen to go there and have fun. One could do the latter in PvE.

Quote:

The UAS PvP release of the games brought back to PvP what the PvPers demanded from the beta ages.. However those sales PALE in the numbers that the actual Full Campaign sales, because by the time they offered it most had everything unlocked that they wanted anyway... but for new people it was a quick way to be competitive in PvP without the grind... which was the original intention for PvP all along.

Agreed there also.

Quote:

Now we Get GW:EN a pure PvE expansion... bringing with it nothing really new for PvP... Why? because in the end The earlier campaigns did more to hurt the PvP part of the game then add to it... because new skills and classes changed the meta game so much every time it took months at times to retain the balance of the PvP system... This time the Designers got smart and added skills for PvE ONLY, thus not effecting the PvP meta game too adversely this time around... And yet adding lots of PvE area to continue the more common adventuring masses on their journey, and adding to the ever growing profit margin for ArenaNet.

IMO the problem is that same one PUGs have - the community mostly sucks. It is just too hard to get into a decent guild and the vast majority of the non-decent guilds are, well, a bunch of bungholes. There are VERY few in between places where one can learn to play whilst having fun.

There is *still* little low end PvP, their solution is to open up the cheats to everyone instead of limiting them - a first time PvP'er is still killed almost instantly and wondering why by characters with elite skills, late game skills, and max armor. The newer areas that *should* be good for new players (some of the factions venues) are full of leechers who make it impossible to learn. There are few new PvP'ers so attrition is killing it.

Just look through any forum on GW out there when someone is trying to start playing PvP - the community discourages it for a LONG time.

Though, to a large extent, I'm not sure how much Anet could fix things. All the above problems are community issues first and foremost. Nearly all the ideas I have read (or my own) can still be exploited and if a large enough part of the community is that way there is little one can do.

Quote:

Point is PvE makes the money... PvP is the competition and challenge...

Both should be money makers for them. The difference is with PvE I can go around the horrid community and play with hench/hero until I finally happen to luck up on a decent guild. No real way to do that with PvP.

Quote:

In the end they had to go with what was going to make them money.

And finally - that I also very much agree with.

DreamWind · Sep 25, 2007, 09:08 AM // 09:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by strcpy

They have stated over and over and over that PvE was the first to be worked on, PvP the second.

ORLY?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lmnEWvo1Ugw

strcpy · Sep 26, 2007, 04:33 AM // 04:33

Yes really - he said it was designed to be competitive from the ground up, not PvP was what they intended it to be and tacked PvE on or anything about the order done.

They have said, many times, that the game was designed from the beginning to be a competitive online RPG (and again note that this include *both* elements), PvE was developed first, PvP was developed second, and both are equally important. There is not one single thing said in that video that negates that, in fact it is just repeating part of what has been said quite a number of times.

Not only that, but from a development standpoint that makes the most sense, writing the story line, scripts, and all the models needed for PvE takes a WHOLE lot longer that the arena's, the rest is shared between the two. That is, by far, the longest of the critical paths they had to cover.

Maybe you have only been here since they started separating the two out with Balth's Faction or even the PvP packs, but in the beginning one *had* to PvE to get unlocks for PvP. While you could technically start a PvP character right off the bat you had no skills and no weapons (unless you picked one of their crappy pre-made characters that you could not change - one of them being a wammo) and you didn't even get most of your elites until you were at the Ring of Fire Islands. If anyone remotely knows the history of how the game was played (and by telling us how it was developed you are implying you know it) they are not thinking if they think that Anet originally intended any thing other than what they have repeatedly said - both as equals. So even after release *everyone* had to start in PvE before playing PvP.

If it somehow makes you feel better that "your side" should be the winner then you can twist any quote you want out there to be whatever you want it to be. GW isn't a Competitive Online Game, it isn't an Online RPG, it is a Competitive Online RPG. That you, and many others (and that very much includes many PvE'rs who want to drop the "Competitive" part) wish it to be otherwise doesn't make it so.

And, finally, that type of attitude is exactly what I describe as what killed PvP. And I still see no way for a technical fix to it